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===== Pre-Winter Safety Round Table Discussion =====

**Tito, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore\\
dnjacobson79** \\
10/07/16 #20047

Quick Footnote -\\
Last summer was the ten year anniversary of the death of a paddling acquaintance. I see those that were involved with the event still troubled about the situation, it truly impacted the entire southeast whitewater community at the time. Briefly, the paddling fatality took place on the local before/after work 'blast down' stretch of the Green River Narrows. Though rated class five, it's really not much harder than class three technical paddling at the normal 100% river level. 200% is totally a different game plan - five miles of solid class five moves linked together with little rest - all mistakes need to be corrected quickly and rescue is much less practicable due to the decrease to stopping eddies. 200% is ten times harder than 100%. The deceased paddler was a solid 100% paddler, no problems. He had run the river the day before he died and nailed it at 100%. The Green was running 200% the next day when he put-in with a very experienced group of well known paddlers - some of them definitely considered leaders in the sport. Some of them thought about telling him to back out before the hike in, some of them thought about it right after the launch as they paddled past the gauge, some thought about telling him to hike out as they entered the meat of the whitewater. Net upshot was no one had the conversation, the paddler missed a relatively routine ferry move and pinned vertically. Amazingly his fellow paddlers were able to scramble and get to the area of the vertical pin within a short amount of minute. Net upshot was heroic rescue measures were unsuccessful and the body was recovered several hours later when the water was shut off. Lesson learned, better to speak up and be honest in paddlesports when it comes to safety versus paying the consequences of being over your head.

Unfortunately, Bellingham and now San Francisco have both had a surf ski fatality. We have also had some near misses/ close calls over the years - most years actually. But, our sport has lower consequences than steep creek paddling, crag climbing, or backcountry skiing for that matter. Sometimes getting into the woods is the easy part, getting out is tricky. If the bay is 100% when blowing in the summer, then think of it as 200% in the winter - x10 more consequences. Let's prevent near misses.

----

Here's some food for thought - what do people feel about this? Let's get some chatter going to enhance some cold water safety etiquette for our community as we head into blow season….

Seems like every fall we make a switch from summer pleasure paddling to fall/winter cold weather conditions - felt like that switch happened this week. Fall and early winter provide some of the best waves in the PNW due to the gusty wind conditions, but also brings with it a narrower margin of error. Bellingham also truly has the strongest, and possibly only, well established year round surf ski community in North America - plus we're fortunate to be strengthened by a strong local OC community, stand-up, and our fast up & coming junior K1 youth program. That said, we owe it to ourselves - as a community that is passionate about paddling in a variety conditions - to ensure that we progress in a safe manner which sets a culture of safety as a core foundation.

With recent paddling tragedies in mind, and considering Bellingham's mixed history for mishaps, it's time that we revisit some safety protocols as we head into our cold wind season. As many of us have seen, paddling within a strong paddlesports community can be an excellent bonus to living here, but it also carries the responsibility that we individually aren't a liability to others on the water and within the community. Case and point - every time a paddler is rescued and/or assisted by the Coast Guard, we as a community breath a sign or relief, but we benefit from these undesirable situations only if we learn and adapt from them. If we don't, money back guarantee we're make the same mistakes again - maybe with more serious outcomes. These negative outcomes would not only seriously impact the family/friends/community of those involved, but could very possibly lead to unintended consequences of decreased access to paddling conditions that many find pleasurable. Said simply, if we're endangering others, be it fellow paddlers, sailors, or Coast Guard and other professional 911 services, while playing unsafely in cold water conditions - then there may come a time when we're told by an entity that is not within our paddling community that in certain conditions we're not allowed to go out and endanger ourselves, others on the water, and potential rescuers.

Enough doom & gloom - I like paddling downwind / sloppy conditions as much as many of you reading this. So how do we create, maintain, and enhance a culture of safety within our community?

What do people think about this? - A sort of COLD WATER SELF CHECK

1. **Skills** - #1 no doubt, can not fake them, period. Doesn't matter if your the best or worst flatwater junkie, wind and waves our a different story. Most of us know many sagas of people not having them - and honestly (and probably rightly so) it's a hard reputation to shake once someone gets it.

Dawid Mocke crashed in our basement for a week this summer and we had several fruitful conversations regarding how to evaluate yourself and your skills when it come to cold open water paddling. To summarize, it's important for individuals to practice and become proficient in paddling well in challenging conditions that don't have huge consequences. He liked what I call THE SLOP TEST - what does the peanut gallery think?

The final sections of the Wednesday Night Race Course between the condos and the final turn has plenty of rebound when it's blowing 20 plus from the south - nice & sloppy.\\
Folks ready to step it up to our less forgiving play pen - Bham bay when it's cold & blowing - then come prove you're ready in the SLOP TEST - certify yourself. Do loops between the last turn marker and one of the buoys off the condos. If a person can paddle well, catch some of the angle rides, and feel balanced in the slop, then this might be a good indicator you're ready for the bay. Maybe if you can handle the slop test when it's blowing 30 from the south, take in down ten notches and maybe 20 in a good upper mark for the windy/cold bay? Thoughts??

2. **Judgment** - can't fake it - but luckily all of us can get better at it!\\
Seems like poor outcomes most often results from several poor decisions in outdoor recreations, especially statistically if you're male (interestingly, I think you're even more likely to make use public media/ and or gadgets like Go-Pro). Putting on close to dark, paddling a boat you're comfortable in sloppy/windy conditions, etc, all adds to the equation.

Blowing 20 from the SW on the bay is totally different 20 from the SE, or even 20 from the south with hints of an east push for that matter. Also, relying, let alone trusting, any forecast on the bay in the winter is iffy at best. If you're out on the bay in any wind in the winter - you should be ready for anything - plain and simple. As we say in the emergency room, don't wonder how you got pregnant after you go into the hot-tube! Be prepared.

3. **Right Equipment** \\
Solid leash, good lifejacket, visible outer layer, correct combo of cold water clothes, radio/cell phone, ski that is stable for you in mixed conditions, maybe a whistle and flare - those are probably in the minimum to go out safely on the bay when it is blowing & cold.

4. **Group Etiquette**

This is probably the hardest thing for a paddling group/community to do - but I honestly have full faith the Bham community can do it, that's who we are and what makes us unique. Case and point, when I was a new pup in the sport I rocked down San Francisco with Goolsby, Reivers, and LB for a week of paddling leading up to US Champs. Other than drinking too much light beer in random cheap hotel parking lots, talking smack (ie politics), and forgetting to tie down the club double on the way back until we hit Oregon (oops), we had each others back - or more correctly - those three salty guys had the new kids back. Our first paddle under the Golden Gate out to Potato Patch was proof - I was always glued to what felt like jumping distance to one or more of them at all times. When we finished the paddle, Larry asked what I thought about the seals I paddled within five feet of at the deep blue turn buoy - good indication that the sharks were also in for the week. I said 'what f—ing seals?' He popped out his camera and flicked through the pics of me rounding the buoy close enough to touch them - I was too new and too gripped to see them. Needless to say, the three salty paddlers I was escorted by definitely had my newbie back.

I think the the right etiquette is priceless, anything less may be a liability. If paddlers look out for each other, someone can tell another person that they aren't ready for the current conditions without ego involved, taking less experienced folks on tamer runs (maybe a lake run or loops on the slop test for example), etc - anything less and we might be dragging someone/ yourself our to a place you don't belong. Paddling with a partner means staying within range of them if that is what I set up, meeting at check-in point is not optional - ie don't blast past it if you're in front and think the other will catch up. if you can't stop a wait/loop back for someone, maybe you shouldn't be out there. Paddling within our community needs group smarts - none of us our going for any medals out there.

Thoughts? - seems like me a have a good thing going - sometimes small adjustments can have huge overall benefits.

Respectfully,\\
DJ

**Mary Harmon** \\
10/07/16 #20048

Question from a newbie in the Gorge. What type of cold weather clothing do you recommend for the upcoming winter conditions? I realize this question is dependent on lots of different factors. I am just curious what you guys wear up in your part of the state.

Mary H.\\
White Salmon

**David Scherrer** \\
10/07/16 #20049

Mary,

Over the years I have come to appreciate a farmer John wetsuit (open arms) with poly pile type long sleeve shirts, a couple if really cold, pogies and a nylon jacket. You might start out a little cool but will warm up quickly. Yes and good zip up neoprene booties. Don't forget a warm hat.\\
D.

**Mary Harmon** \\
10/07/16 #20050

Thanks!!

That sounds great. I have experience going down whitewater rivers in the winter with a dry suit, lots of layers and pogies. But I was hoping to avoid the dry suit to have more mobility. I appreciate your input. Thanks!

**Larry Goolsby** \\
10/08/16 #20051

This is a great post that needs to be repeated periodically. I appreciate the time and effort DJ took in writing this, and I firmly believe that all of our members should reflect on what you posted.

To be safe in the winter months takes much more effort than what you experienced in the summer. You need to have a buddy. This means that if you choose to paddle alone, it's best if you stay close to shore. If you have a partner, stay in sight of them (really). Reivers and I often paddle in mixed conditions together. We are in constant sight of each other (no exceptions), often within speaking distance. It is noticeably different when we paddle with others; the person in the lead does not always stop and check on their partner. Winter is on our doorstep; think before lifting your boat off your car.\\
LG

**njcooksey@ymail.com** \\
10/08/16 #20053

I would say a poly pro top and a farmer john will get your arms very cold and your hands become useless if you get wet and its blowing. If the nylon jacket is not sealed at the neck and wrists and only blocks wind then it wont help much. I rescued a paddler dressed exactly like that after they went swimming a few times and got too cold to stay upright. You need neoprene up top and/or a dry or semi-dry top. I wear a 1.5 mm top and 3 mm pants. others go for a full 3/2 or 4/3 suit. If its really cold or blowing I wear a short sleeve or long sleeve dry top over .

A good test is something we used to do when I paddled a sea kayak in winter. Go out and do a float test in your chosen attire. We would do this in a Lake Washington in January and every year we had a new person show up in a dry suit and thin polypro and quickly realized how a dry suit works.

For gorge paddling in the winter you should check with JD as the water gets seriously cold there.

**Mary Harmon** \\
10/08/16 #20054

I appreciate the advice. The float test sounds like the way to go. Luckily, I am in the right place to look for gear.

**David Scherrer** \\
10/08/16 #20055

Each to their own…..always a compromise as to whether to be like a penguin or something less restricting and hot when you get going.

**Larry Bussinger** \\
10/08/16 #20056

Re: DJ's item #4….when buddied up, it's still hard to keep track of someone if you get ahead and are flying. It also seems to be human nature for the guy behind to tuck in behind the lead guy. However, this makes it extremely hard for the lead guy to keep track of the guy behind. If you stay well off to the side, all I have to do is do a quick glance over my shoulder instead of stopping and turning around into a compromising position to locate you. If you're right there, we can keep paddling hard. If I glance back and I'm too far ahead, I'll take a breather until you catch up. If you disappear, I know you're in trouble, and I know where to look. BUT STAY WELL OFF TO THE SIDE.

Re: wet suit vs. dry suit….I have a dry suit, but am falling into the camp of wetsuits. With the new generation of 3/2 high flex wetsuits, you can stay dry, not over heat, and have better warmth if you go in. Dry suits with enough interior insulation for immersion is almost to hot to paddle. Like David suggests, a two piece outfit allows you to layer for the weather conditions.

Larry B

**Dennis Mowry**

10/08/16 #20059

Instead of just a float test I would suggest doing some remounts to see how many it takes before getting cold.

**bill** \\
10/08/16 #20061

I have a lot of things to add to the general topic of safety but will start with something topical and save the ramblings for another email. I went for a paddle today with 4 other paddlers on the Edmonds to Mukilteo run. We were all looking for a solid run and we got that and more. We discussed a plan of staying together but it was short on details. It was not long into the run that there were two groups spread well apart and me in between trying to decide who to stick with. At about the same time things were getting big as the wind had picked up a fair bit. Looking at some data later( ferry and buoy) it was around 30knots gusting to somewhere around 40 and picking up spray at times. By that time it was more than apparent we needed to group up but we were already scattered all over in conditions making it hard to look for people let alone see them.

To make a long story short I and most everyone spent a lot of time looking for each other, sitting and waiting for people in big conditions to catch up who might or might not be behind (missing), concerns about it getting even bigger, spending a lot of time going slow scanning for people… etc. Our plans fell apart very quickly, mostly because we were spread out early in moderate conditions but then things got big in a hurry and we were all over the place. We all made it back despite some swims, and games of hide and seek in the swell ( like a really big day in swell city with the cross chop, for something like 8 miles).

Things that would have helped… Even though everyone was wearing bright colors, more area and brighter is better. Just a bright hat or a once bright now faded PFD is very hard to see. Slap on that fluorescent gorge fest jersey or something… Be BRIGHT! It really helps you show up out there. White skis suck! They are essentially invisible when it's rough. Put something bright on your white ski like a vinyl transfer or bright Plasti-dip ( I have a new ski I'm doing this as soon as it stops raining).

Plans…. Ours fell apart immediately. They should be clear to all and have back up plans included. It is up to the person in front (of a slower person) to stay in contact, not the other way around. Decide where your going and stick to the plan. If one group takes off to the middle but others stay more towards shore who goes to who to meet up?

Everyone had radio or phones. Ether would be difficult to use in conditions One persons phone was not working well because of wet fingers. I think anywhere in the sound a radio is a much better option. All radios should be on and turned up loud BEFOR setting out. When it's rough out a radio is a lot easer to use than a phone as you can use it with one hand. It's not easy but a lot easer than a phone. You can inform all of the people you are paddling with (with a radio) you're in trouble all at the same time, plus the CG and other local vessels. These are the people that can actually help you. It is way more effective than a phone in getting help…. Learn to use it.

Leashes.. (don't get me started on leashes)… make sure they are bomber and leash your paddle. Can't use your phone in a blow without it.

Bill

**Larry Bussinger**

10/09/16 #20064

What you just described is what always happens and why the Bellingham crowd almost never has a plan. We've tried, but we can't make it stay together. The dynamics of the waves and Individual skill sets don't seem to let it work out. In rough waves, going slow isn't a comfortable way to paddle and probably puts more people at risk. In my experience, doing a buddy system with two people of similar skill sets has a better chance of working. Three people? Which one do you stick with when you start separating and one can't hold the speed or direction because of ….whatever? The worse the conditions become, the more improbable the ability to hold the discipline.

What seems to happen is that once you start, people will start to clump up and start watching each other in the clump. The faster ones looking over their shoulder or off to the side and slowing down or speeding up slightly to stick together. I've tried a buddy system with one person but couldn't make it stay together because of conditions. Now I just adapt by watching the clump I'm in, and if the clump changes, I just watch someone else. If someone goes in, at least I'm close enough to help.

Since, with surfsking, it has never seemed to work by grouping up with multiple people, it might be better to work with a more dynamic model and have a more general plan. It also seems smart for a newer paddler to arrange ahead of time to be with an experienced paddler, and both be in phat boats. For one so they will be stable and for the other so they can go slower and assist in rescues.

I think we have enough senior paddlers that have flexible schedules that if newer paddlers need some coaching, backup, or the comfort of having someone close by in moderate conditions, that it can be arranged.

Larry B

**Reivers Dustin**

10/09/16 #20066

awesome discussion. DJ put together a really strong post. But of course we all just want to talk about our ideas. Listen to others? … not so much. Even so, good value in the discussion.

Not in priority order - just most impact on survival:\\
1) equipment, 2) skills, 3) situational awareness 4) buddies.

I wanted to mention that a surfski sucks as a rescue vessel. Having a buddy help you from their surfski is a weak position to put yourself in. Also big trouble being in a surfski trying to help someone who is in high adrenaline.

You don't want to be like Blanche DuBois, "…depended on the kindness of strangers …". And of course they sent her to the nuthouse for not facing up to reality. The the play is meant to be ironic in that her daughter "STELLA!!!" doesn't face up the problem of Stanley her husband. But I digress …

As DJ lays out, if people die the "AHJ" Authority Having Jurisdiction will do something about it. That is their charter. They don't seem to mind the rescues. They have a passion for VHF radios. By the way, a lot of stuff can be found in our message archives. Check out "shrinkage regatta".

rd

**njcooksey@ymail.com** \\
10/09/16 #20067

Our Seattle group paddle yesterday was a classic, almost epic. Here's my report of our fun day out.

We had 5 experienced paddlers 15-25 mph predicted and 12 mile downwind from Edmonds to Mukilteo that all of us had done at least once. We agreed to regroup every couple of miles. I was in front and threw my feet out to let other catch up every 10-15 mins as conditions were getting bigger quickly. . On stops number 1-3, I waited only 1-2 mins before I could count everyone and let them go by. Stop number 4, I stopped with Tracy L and waited a couple of mins and watched Bill and Brendan pass about 100 yds to the east.

Of course we assumed they saw us too.\\
Conditions were gusting to over 35 with 4-6' waves so the fact that they didn't is not surprising in retrospect. Tracy and I had already decided to work east and get on the same line as Bill and Brendan but then I made it clear I would go look for Jim. I waited another few minutes and still no Jim. So I decided to head back up wind to look for Jim.After a long 20 mins of upwind, I spotted Jim remounting He was slowly working towards shore. As I got closer I saw he was missing one lens of his glasses.That no doubt contributed to the 3 swims and remounts in those conditions had left him a little worked and he was kind of done surfing for the day. He was well dressed with 3 mil neoprene top and bottom. We paddled together the rest of the way letting most of the big ones go by and sticking close to shore where conditions were smaller. Bill and Brendan were at the Mukilteo shore trying to get a high spot to see us coming. I texted Tracy using Siri and told here we were OK. Jim and I have done this run several times and in big conditions but just goes to show we can all have a bad day.

I like Bill's idea of throwing a bright shirt over the neoprene. That Vaikobi winter kit is the awesome stuff but maybe a bit dark on these stormy days. The line choice is a harder thing to manage as we all know.

[[https://youtu.be/e67p6MLPYOc|https://youtu.be/e67p6MLPYOc]]

-Nick Cooksey

**David Hooper**

10/10/16 #20069

Just a few additions to point 4 of DJ’s thoughtful post:

I took Dawid Mocke’s downwind paddling workshop this summer. Not much wind that day, unfortunately, but that gave us a chance to chat about a lot of safety issues. The thing that stuck with me the most was the need for clear communication, and that that need increases exponentially with the size of the group going out. A few key points:

1. On Mocke’s club’s downwinders, whoever the “group leader” is makes sure everyone is paired up before anyone gets in the water. He emphasized pairs; triples only work if each person only has to look out for one other (e.g., person 1 watches person 2 who watches person 3 who watches person 1).

2. People need to talk – if anyone is uncomfortable (they think they may be over their heads, or some one thinks someone else is over their heads), they need to speak up.

3. Clear communication between partners on planned routes, how to communicate (radios, etc.), is essential.

The discussion reminded me a lot of recent progress in avalanche safety for backcountry skiers and riders. Many (most?) accidents occur because of poor group dynamics – excessive testosterone, poor communication, leaving all route decisions to “the experts” even when some people aren’t comfortable with them. Some people are advocating the “Three Questions” before anyone leaves the parking lot – to which EVERYONE in the group must respond and discuss:

1. What’s the avy report?

2. What are the likely consequences if the worst happens, given our proposed route?

3. Are you comfortable with that?

I’ve only done one downwinder and lots of laps off of MP, so I don’t want to feign expertise in downwinder group dynamics. Certainly, typical bc skiing groups are much smaller than some of the bigger downwinder groups. But, if anything, I’d say that makes the buddy system all that more important – maybe most analogous to skiing trees after a big dump, where you want to maintain constant visual with your partner so you don’t end up way downhill and out of sight of them, lest they be upsidedown in a tree well. Or maybe safe below, already ordering a beer at the bar while you’re wallowing back up hill stressing and yelling for them.

Communication sounds so simple, but it can be so difficult – some people are amped and just want to get going; others may feel too intimidated to speak up, especially if they’re new to the crowd. But it’s also something everyone can contribute to. And the more we do it, the easier it becomes.

Dave Hooper

**David Scherrer**

10/10/16 #20070

D.\\
I agree with every thing you say…\\
In diving we had the "buddy" system. Always pair up with someone, always keep an eye out for each other. I do believe this simple rule could work in our group. Before we turn down wind, buddy up. Keeping it simple, we actually might remember to do it.

David S.

**Eric Grossman** \\
10/10/16 #20076

Thanks to DJ for trying to ensure our awesome paddle community thrives with no more significant avoidable mishaps.

You all said it but in any big condition we all have to have a plan and stick to it. What is different for skilled vs newer paddlers is (1) knowing and working with one's skill and (2) following a plan that works for someone wanting/needing an extra eye/help.

No one has mentioned swimming skill and for (#1) it is imperative for all of us to know our ability to swim out of a problem if needed - and barring an injury that leaves one unconscious or unable to swim.

So a question for everyone - are you a capable swimmer and are you ready to swim a half mile or back to shore if choose to paddle so far offshore and then lose or have to abandon your boat? I see a lot of people far offshore in wicked seas - i often vie for an inside line when sketchy and would prefer swimming a shorter distance to shore if needed. I've been tempted to bring small swim fins on big days-but they would need to be strapped to body when shit hits the fan to need them.

The plan to address (#2) is equally important for all levels and especially in case of separating or injury. How about letting someone wanting an extra eye or possible help go first a few times and skilled buddy follow behind close enough to spot and respond to trouble? You can have fun surfing a circuitous line back and forth while still within a few minutes of your buddy. Stop at designated regroup spots. Try to surf close but not so close you might T-Bone your buddy. Talk a lot to know if you are in close enough distance to hear a problem. This isn't as critical if you are with a capable buddy unless someone gets hurt. So another possible safeguard is a helmet. Always comes back to knowing your skill, assessing conditions, listen to your instincts, and thinking through a plan.

**bill**

10/10/16 #20079

The topic of swimming brings up the topic of immersion again. I strongly feel that farmer johns and two piece neoprene setups just don't cut it when you actually need it.

Having had the unfortunate experience of not being able to get back in my ski and needing help I have some strong opinions now about what works and doesn't. I had on 2mm bottoms and a 1.5mm top with a paddle jacket over it during my troubles. I usually wear a one pice full 3-2mm suit but I had sold it and was waiting on another to arrive (arrived the next day). My two piece set up were near useless in conditions. The issue was when trying to remount the ski the top came un tucked from the bottom. Every time I would go up and down in the chop the top would let water in, a lot. It would open at the bottom seam as I went down and totally flood/flush exchanging all the water … every time I went up and down. It was like not having the top on and I was getting cold in 5 min.

A full suit is so much, much warmer.. It not even close. When doing remount practice I can spend 30+ min in the water in my 3-2mm suit and still be warm-ish. I suspect in an hour I would be chilly but still functional, that's all in the water. I only spent about 10 min in the water during my troubles, the rest of the time was out of the water draped over the ski. In the 45 min or so before I was rescued I entered stage one of hypothermia and was having hard time making clear decisions and speaking clearly. If I had to swim very far at all I would have failed. If I had to spend another 30 min on the ski I would have been dangerously cold and I doubt I could get back in the ski if I slipped off. In a full quality 3-2mm suit things like swimming 1/2 mile might look very different.

My O'Neill 3-2mm Psycho One suit is super stretchy and in no way gets in the way of my paddling. My old Patagonia R1 suit was dryer and warmer but didn't that fit me right. My suit is warm enough to give me a good amount of immersion protection but I don't over heat when paddling hard around 60° as long as I wear my thin booties. At 55° thick booties. 50° on goes a paddle jacket and gloves. 45° a thin fuzzy short sleeve top between the paddle jacket and suit. 40° a neoprene skull cap. 35° and below a drysuit. I might pick up a 3-4mm for colder conditions. I keep a neoprene cap in my front pouch in case I get cold or I find myself in the water and need all the help I can get.

If your serious about being prepared for immersion, a two piece set up or farmer john won't do it. A quality one piece is super comfortable and non restricting, way, way warmer and not that expensive. Something like $300 new in eBay for last years top of the line suit or $350 for this years. If your going to put on a neoprene top and bottom or farmer johns and a dry top or whatever, why not put on something that actually works instead.

If your thinking of getting a full suit, don't get one with a "skin" side on the torso. I find it sticks to and binds on a PFD. Also having nylon on the torso helps you stay cool if you're over heating. Get it wet and the evaporative cooling can help.

Bill

**bill**

10/10/16 #20080

Yikes!.. sorry about the text size. Not sure how that happened.

Bill

**Michael Gregory**

10/11/16 #20087

Eric has touched a topic that is totally germane to us paddlers; can you swim in after being parted from your boat? Please, do not be dismissive of the importance this skill. Leashes can break in high winds. Boats can sink. Partners may not be able to assist in bad weather. Even the most seasoned paddlers are faced with a rough water swim - I can think of a few World Champions that have survived such swims. You are invited to chime-in guys.

Don't even ask how I know this stuff, ok? Neoprene rules for it's buoyancy! Your PFD should be snug enough that it won't ride up in your face while you swim. If it's big you might need to let that paddle go, side-stroke with a paddle might not get you there. Getting tossed around in big waves can make anybody puke (sorry to be so direct), spit it out and focus on the moment.

Cold water complicates things in the worst way. Function of the hands and arms is lost first. Keep swimming!

Radios, cell phones, and flares are great but, Coast Guard boats and helicopters are still 15 - 20 mins away, at best. Get decked out in Neoprene, in a controlled situation, and try it out.

BTW, I really like the swim fin option Eric mentioned. Maybe, "shorty" fins in a front pocket of a PFD? One becomes a stronger faster swimmer with fins.

Swimmingly Yours, Mike.

**Tito, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore\\
Waterman Larry** \\
10/11/16 #20088

In gorge windsurfing a lot of us sail in the winter. We dress for the swim with consideration for slow swimming for injuries. This means we are dressed too hot and sweaty for best comfort.

As to leashes. I have had beautiful leashes snap when only holding an 8'4" gun surfboard. Leash joints and tie offs have broken too. The metal swivels will corrode and wear out inside. Check every connection.

Winter is here and I plan to paddle and sweat like a pig. I will miss the cool paddling in the summer when the water in the river doesn't require my "Get Home" clothing.

Larry Goodson\\
\\
**Nicholas Cryder** \\
10/11/16 #20094

A lot of great discussion here.

While I am hardly a shinning example of waterman prowess, I can relate from my mountain climbing days the idea that speed is safety. The longer you are in the red zone, the more time you expose yourself to something bad happening. The gist is that the single greatest risk was conditions change (avalanche, frostbite, hypothermia, HAP/HACE, rockfall vs. outright human error like rappelling off the end of your rope). A large group is only as fast as its slowest member, and the lowest common denominator will have an outsized impact on the outcome because they are the most vulnerable to conditions change. A matched pair working in perfect sync was ideal for the bigger, more ambitious lines and being disciplined enough to only operate in an ideal conditions window. Leave the large group thing for the tourist social slogs, and generally only head out with a partner that you have a lot of trust in and vice versa.

N

**bill** \\
10/11/16 #20097

I would like to stress again that a VHF radio with DSC is far mor useful than a phone and is not just about contraction the CG. It has you in direct contact with people that are helping you. That might be the cost guard but more likely pleasure boats in the vicinity. If you put in a "May Day" call the CG will broadcast a general call for immediate assistance needed to a person in distress to all boats in the vicinity. The other day I counted 4 boats out in the area we were paddling. You are also in contact with any boats that respond as well as the CG and other paddlers. You can direct them to where you or anyone in distress is. This aspect of having a radio is not to be underestimated and far far more useful than a phone.

**bill**

10/11/16 #20098

Uff… hit the send button too soon.

Living on lake union for a number of years let me have the opportunity to calling 911 about 10 times on people in distress on the lake. One thing I learned was that the 911 operator would never put me in direct contact with the police when trying to direct the police to the person or boat in distress. I would have to answer a lot of pre set questions often not relating to the situation taking a lot of time before they would call it to the police in there boat. One time they wouldn't inform the police until I could tell if there was 4 OR 6 people in the water because I said I saw ”4 possibly 6 people in the water from capsized skiff". I would watch the police boat drive right by people in the water or head the wrong direction all because the information was not being reported correctly by the 911 operator. When I asked if I could speak directly to the police they said no. In one case they couldn't find the people I could see clinging to dock. After 10 min of conveying directions third hand the 911 operator she had the police in the boat call me on my phone. 2 min later they had the swimmers.

My take away with phones and water rescues are there are to many middlemen and not enough direct communication. It makes everything slow and vague.

When I was in the water and needed help it was a pleasure boat and a comercial fishing boat that came to my aid after an general call on Chanel 9 for immediate assistance. I had to direct them to where I was with the radio. Both said they couldn't see me until they were very close and my help in directing them was critical to finding me. And this was on a moderate day. I can't imagen how all this would have gone with just a phone but I suspect not well.

Bill

**Larry Bussinger**

10/11/16 #20099

When I had my emergency, I ran into the police in Woods coffee on Boulevard. They called the CG directly to rescue the other person in the water. If I have to use my phone, I'll call the local CG station, not 911. That will cut out a least one middle man. Using VHF will sometimes get you another CG station because of the "repeater", adding another middle man back in.

Larry B

**David Hooper**

10/14/16 #20120

A few unspoken caveats to my post earlier this week after several days of fleeting pondering and watching the emerging discussion:

1. Buddy system skiing/treewell analogy – I felt like I might have been preaching to the choir. I’m not sure about the Venn diagram of overlap amongst the paddling and snow communities, but I suspect it is fairly substantial. Any skiers and riders in this group, and especially Duncan, obviously know about the treewell issue from the too common ski area accidents all around the PNW (and kudos to Mt. Baker for being so early in the curve of tree well education). But, preaching to the choir aside, it still seems a pretty apt analogy for sticking with a buddy in the water in full conditions.

2. Mocke’s buddy system – I wasn’t meaning to advocate any particular approach, just throw out for discussion what he said they do in his group. Sounded much more top-down organized than the more organic clustering for downwinders that happens here, often reliant on the generosity of the guy with the big trailer. Even if not “top-down” organized, though, it seems like a good idea for explicit discussion among all about who’s hanging with whom. But again, having only done one downwinder, and having my neoprene all in bunch trying to get ready at the time, I was clueless what the standard protocol was and very appreciative to Medler for helping me get the run lined up (see #3, below).

3. Buddy system functional analysis – I think Nick brought up several different ways to pair up: long-trusted equal partner vs. pairing with someone less experienced to keep an eye out for them vs. pairing up with someone more experienced as one nudges up to their own next level. Seems like all are possibilities, and depend on the situation.

4. Finally, as others have mentioned, radios are a great way for communicating with the rest of the group, or other boats while on the water in case there is a mixup. DSC is good when the s**t hits the fan. The FCC license that gets one set up for both US and Canada is only $160. How much did we pay for our boats? Now I just have to figure out how to merge the license for my handheld with the one for the fixed radio on my sailboat, because I really don’t want to have to pay another $160.

All these subleties were percolating in the back of my head last time, or have been since, but I was too tired to articulate them. One of the drawbacks of posting late at night. Sort of like now.

Dave H.
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