Surfski Knowledge Base

Cheating Starts
Reivers Dustin
08/28/14 #16158

(Rant alert)

At Canadian Champs there was a poor start. I spoke with some of the guys after. Some younger guys thought is was all part of the sport. Not all of the big racers did. For the record Clint was caught on the bad end of this creeping start. But hanging out at the hotel hot-tub with beers there were comments like, 'all part of the sport'.

I got news: this is not going to work for me. I'll be done putting money down real quick if the sport goes that way. There's a great clip on youtube of an Olympic sprint race where the heavily favored racer jumped the start: he's immediately out of the event, no appeal, no discussion - a bad end of four years of hard work.

For certain Bob P and crew did a phenominal job and I don't know what I would have done in their place. But there is a few guys who need to know that this feels disrespectful to the sport and to me as a fellow competitor.

rd

dnjacobson79
08/28/14 #16159

RD - you had a great race last weekend, way to make the one-piece lycra proud….dang! We're going to start a fund to get you out of retirement & back behind the desk! Awesome performance!

I was just chatting with Big D about the starting line after chasing some morning bump. Though I totally see your very valid point regarding the startline, from my perspective, the start was the best part of the flat race. I lined up with Hank, Sean & Jasper on my right, a group of Aussie guns on the left. I remember looking over at Hank when the line started moving and seeing the biggest cheek-cheek grin, Sean looked incredibly serious/determined. I was about one boat length behind the top pack when they hit their after-burners. Other than picking off two of the Aussie paddlers during the race (thanks to them bonking), I spent the race in a different zip-code than the front pack. I like the lack of regulations in surfski, no ICF judges checking to see the rudder is coming out on waves, feel that racers should be permitted to draft anything going in the same general direction, including wave boats hired by fellow paddlers to spice things up, doubles, and than new OC-5 thing that Alan in building.

Big thanks to Bob, Ian & all the volunteers for putting on a well run inaugural race. I hear than most floating starts on the surfski international circuit get 'bumped', so that might explain the feeling that most of the international racers weren't surprised that it went off early (not saying that is right/wrong, just seems like it is what happens). Maybe I just like races that bump the starting line…even if it's only our very own Wednesday night local speed fest.
-DJ

Reivers Dustin

08/28/14 #16160

Very simple: No way DJ. Even little kids know it's wrong to cheat. I'm all in favor of anything but equipment or body damage during the race. But cheating a start will get me out of racing you or anyone else that does it. I've played where anything goes and I won't go back there for anything. Lack of regulation is great, but you know the old expression, you can't be “a little bit pregnant”. If you put 10 feet or 50 in your favor at the start what else is ok? I thought we were done with this because of 2012 U.S. Champs.

If everyone else is cool with the rolling start, tell me now and I'll chill somewhere else. I don't need to change the world, I just need to live my own life.

rd

Erik Borgnes
08/29/14 #16161

Reivers, I couldn’t agree with you more. There’s a huge difference between a paddler maneuvering 2 ft forwards to get out of the way of impending collisions at the race start - but sprinting off the “line” at the horn, and with what I’ve seen happen.

Jumping the start line is a strange thing to me because I’m not really concerned about the 10-50 yds advantage that a competitor might gain off the start line, but it seems like it puts me in a moral or ethical dilemma when it happens because while you know that it’s wrong, there’s a point when you know that the race director isn’t going to do anything and then it puts me into the position of reluctantly following the lead of the start-jumpers - which is something that I hate to do because it rewards bad behavior. It only takes one guy to start the process of rolling the start line forwards to screw up the start for everyone.

I view it as rude and disrespectful to the other racers and to the race director who’s trying to maintain some semblance of sportsmanship at the start. While the problem is caused by a paddler or a couple of paddlers, some responsibility falls on the race directors who perpetuate the behavior when they keep allowing it to happen. A couple of the last races I did in the NW soured me to racing up there when the race directors didn’t want to “be the bad guy” and penalize racers for blatantly cheating starts. I would hazard a guess to say that there are a silent majority in the sport who find that type of behavior offensive and end up not racing as much as they otherwise would.

Fortunately, in the midwest, our races on the Great Lakes have less hooliganism and are more fun - much like the Sound Rower races were 15 yrs ago.

EB

ALAN CLARK

08/29/14 #16162

Reivers and Eric,

In sailing, if people start early, the race committee just calls a re-start. If you don't come back, you don't get a finish. After a couple of attempts to start a race, the race committee can put up one of two flags. The “Z” flag which gives a 20% scoring penalty for anybody over early, or the “Black” flag which says that a boat over early will receive a DSQ. It's pretty effective. The system is used in Olympic sailing events, most big international sailing events, and in national and world class championships when necessary. Re-starts can be a pain for everybody, but they do keep everybody honest. A penalty or DSQ seems harsh, but is effective in changing competitor's behavior. Nothing like flushing hefty event entry fees, years of effort and preparation down the tubes because you started early!

I am not advocating this system be used for all races, but for major races it might be a good alternative to doing nothing. If info about the potential for a 20% penalty or DSQ for starting early were included in the race entry or paddlers meeting, it might help people decide to hang back just a bit. Now for the more complex question of what do surf ski and outrigger paddlers really want, a fair start or the current “rolling starts”?

Alan

Reivers Dustin
08/29/14 #16163

I've gotten feedback privately, I think you're right Erik. Some folks are just voting with their feet and walking away. I know that all the organizers have to do is tell the place finisher(s) once: “sorry mate, you crossed the start, that's a DNF - next guy gets the win”. No warnings, no pulling back the start - just ejected from the podium. Oh yeah, and forget these start warnings. Get a watch people.

These guys view themselves as champions and role models. News flash: it won't pass with me. If you can't finish first without a false advantage I'm going to call B.S. on your stature. Cheating and lying are all the same to me.

rd

Starts
duncanhowat
08/29/14 #16164

People that rave and rant, about things, (starts) and don't ever put races on themselves, and deal with these issues personally, don't have a lot of cred out there. It was Bobs race and he can do and call it like he wants. Now as such , I am herby assigning RD to be the official starter, and writer of starting rules for the LK Sanish race, then there should be no complaints. No wait, then you can't race, darn. OK, RD, post the starting rules and penalties and still race.

allipp01
08/29/14 #16166

Easy fix here…….anyone caught false starting is not eligible for the hot spot!

Cheating Starts
Carter Johnson
08/29/14 #16169

- Since there is no consequence in jumping the start, if you expect to be competitive your only choice is to go with the others when they start. Else you are left behind. Even if you absolutely do not want to do it. You have to… Period….. else you will be the guy at the end saying I should have won, But……. And nobody will care or even want to hear it. Especially the race directors….

- In the California 100 race. I make an announcement at the pre-race meeting that anybody over the line gets a 2 hour penalty. Start line is clear and it is on video, there will be no warning when gun goes off and no appeal. Guess what. Not a single person was even near the line.. This is because there is guaranteed enforced consequence.

I would love to see the following

1) Similar announcement made with a very clear starting line that cannot be confused. Two buoys 100 meters apart

2) I would love to see every one of the top dogs jump the start and get a 1 hour penalty

3) And see the first place $3k go to some dude in a V8

You can bet it would be the last time they jumped the start at your race. Granted they may never come back, but in all fairness, good riddens..

Bottom line if there is no guaranteed ENFORCED consequence. Racers MUST jump the start with others. You have no choice even if you hate it and don’t want to do it….

My 2 cents.

Carter

Reivers Dustin

08/29/14 #16171

Best answer yet, Carter. There was some other elites that explained their troubles with this privately.

But Duncan has a point. I race directed Samish Salmon Roe the first year Mickey and Beth sat out. I suck as a race director. It rattled me to be that bad at something. I didn't get in trouble and Mickey was great about helping me. Most folks were supportive. But please don't make me do it anymore. I'm feeling weird, like maybe somebody thinks I dissed Bob P. Here's a guy who has given more to the sport than most. That venue has possibly the best situation for the widest range of abilities anywhere. All the Canadian events seem to have an element of reckless enthusiasm that is so cool.

I hope this all gets cleaned up somehow. I will never give up paddling, but would have to let go of competing if it gets trashy. I figure just not saying anything would be worse.

rd

Bob Putnam
08/29/14 #16172

Hi Reivers,

I have no hard feelings about your comments they are all true. its a healthy discussion. I was not happy with how the start went off. As Carter stated most of the top guys know how the starts have been going for the international races as of late. From Carter's description Clint Robinson was the one who sat back and probably paid a price. Having attended a few USSSC and Hong Kong Dragon where similar starts have taken place I knew that racers would be moving at the 1 minute mark.

But with all the clarity of hind sight. I should have called the racers back when they were 30 metres beyond the start line. A more clearly marked start line would have helped too.

Don't worry I'm not beating myself up over it. We'll fix it for next year.
regards
Bob

Michael Gregory
08/29/14 #16173

Reivers, I would not worry about “dissing” Bob. He gets worked over all the time and has really thick skin (hi Bob).
Contrary to what you say, you should be Salmon Row director. Your obvious passion for these issues and the fact that a retired fellow, such as yourself, has time to devote to this problem. I can envision a new set of race guidelines - Reivers Rules of Order. How about a new name for this showcase Bellingham Paddle race - The Reivers Row! We, except DJ, will all be behind you, 100%;)

Reivers Dustin
08/29/14 #16177

I've posted waaay too much. Thanks MG for cred. If Samish was going to die I would step up rather than let it go away. But Howat crew have made that a star of the year. Peter M, John R., Duncan and of course Big Bob have real chops running events. Putnam's Tues Niters' has created some pretty good athletes with all the crazy stuff he had people doing. Wish Deep Cove was closer. You guys should do at least one of those just to see how great that is.

It stings when there's something wrong, but this is going to help: put it right there in the punchbowl. Watching Clint suck it up and not say anything about the way things went pushed me. For a guy to hang like that and stay true to the event was a show of character.

Duncan: I will back your play however you want to call it.

OK. I've missed this perfect opportunity to shut up. It would be great if we hear from others who have not said anything. This all works because we have so many great people in it. It's impressive for Carter to go public. I wonder will he take some heat from certain ones. Oh. By the way, I'm still rooting for DJ for top dawg.

rd

Dennis Mowry
08/29/14 #16179

I agree with Reivers and everyone who expressed concerns regarding the cheating starts. Rolling starts aren't a way to justify openly taking off before the start.

It was even encouraged in a blog post to take off early. Here's a quote from Austin
Things I have learned about Surfski in Fish Hoek, by Austin Kieffer

Racing:
• Cut in front of people’s line of sight
It’s totally a dirty trick, but if possible cut in front of someone when surfing. I’m not talking about cutting them off or anything, nothing that douche-y, but crossing their line of sight a wave ahead is a surprising rhythm ruiner. Jasper did it a few times to me when doing training intervals and I was shocked at how I totally lost my rhythm and awareness of the waves.
• Always cheat at the start!
– There are no gentlemen in Surfski racing and if you see an opportunity to get ahead, take it! This is most notable in the start, where you always want to be just in front and sprint off the line one second early.
– I’m a little submissive naturally and training by myself hasn’t allowed me the practice to stay just a beat ahead of the competition, but Japser keeps telling me in racing and in practice that if I’m not pushing the pace I’m just going to get left behind.

He also gives some great advice: January | 2014 | Surfski Northwest

The Champs should be examples, especially in title races, I will follow Clint's example from now on and believe it will actually make me faster than relying on cheating. I also think Clint showed integrity of character, a true gentleman, which shows in his personality and abilities. If the awards go to those who take off early what does it mean.

Clear Instructions before and a restart if violated should cure most of the problems.

Paddle Strong,
Dennis

dnjacobson79
08/30/14 #16180

Great discussion – seriously thoughtful, passionate, and pot stirring!

I once had the race director from Juan de Fuca Downwinder call me up a couple days after the race to chat about a complaint that I started 400 meters in front of the starting line when the horn went off. As an avid line pusher, I apologized for mistake, and told him I was fine with being DQ’ed, honestly I didn’t care. Chatting with Alan and Brandon about the confusing start, they commented that I lined-up right next to them, right next to the start boat, while many if the other regional racers present (Gabe, Don, Greg, Eric B, & some other hooligans) were warming-up way west of the start when the horn went off. In retrospect, maybe I should of waited for the stragglers to catch-up before I left, but I didn’t. To one of them, I might of looked like I was ahead of the start, from my vantage point I could barely see them as they completed their double warm-up. For that matter, Don & I missed the start at one of the cold flatwater races this winter, no one waited for us, it was my own fault that we missed the start. But, I agree with Duncan, the start is up to the race director, and though it looks like 60-70% of the field were pushing the line last weekend from the start video, I don’t know if it makes it right/wrong. I’d wager that 60-70% of the dozen or so Whatcom paddlers were also pushing the line, I know I was.

Clint did an amazing job of catching up with the front pack after not pushing the line (or not as much as others maybe), congrats to him, he’s a stud racer. Other than Jasper taking a solo far left line (which ended up not working), all the others in the top pack said they packed together in a group, and all I’m told (other than Clint) they took turns pulling. In my mind Clint was smart, he let Booth bonk off the back at the half way point, young Kenny hung on as long as he could, amazingly Hank even fell off – all the time I’m told Clint just hung back on the wash and let the others pull. Though the others might not of psyched that he drafted & didn’t pull, it was probably smart tactics and maybe helped him achieve his second place result. To me that was smart racing by Clint. I don’t believe drafting is a ‘free ride’, or everyone would be doing it. If I’m drafting someone and not redlining, I usually try to recover on the wash for a couple strokes and then blast around them. If I’m redlining, I try to keep hanging on for another ten strokes.

RD, you are a stud in my mind, and I like it how you are able to ‘say it as it is’, I expect no less from you & all Whatcom Paddlers.

Peter, if you need some filler footage for the film fest, can I recommend some scenes from the classic movie ‘Grumpy Old Men’!

See all you line pushers and wash riders on the water!
-DJ

lbussinger@…
08/30/14 #16183

I have some problems with drafting and not pulling being an issue. To pull around someone takes about another 10-15 % to get over their wake, an amount that I usually don't have. And if I know I can't, I'm not going to try and then blow up. While it may happen at the short Wednesday night race, passing at the finish at a longer race doesn't happen that often, at least not in my class. If someone really wants to trade lead for a while then they will have to let you pass long enough to get around. In 25 years of paddling, only once did someone work with me in changing the lead, and he was a stranger at the Round Bowen Island race. We changed back and forth for an hour. Never saw him again.

allipp01
08/30/14 #16186

So do I, apparently.

My reaction to a double and a single surfski that both drafted us for over 12 miles of a 12.3 mile race, then tried to pass with about a quarter mile to…

Erik Borgnes
08/30/14 #16190

Oh, come now, DJ, I have to call you out on that one. Your story doesn't make sense. Everyone else was “doing a second warm up” and you were the only one on the start line ready to go, and went when the horn went off? I'll concur that you went at the horn that time, but since you were 200 yards out and 300 yrds closer to the finish (if Bill remembers it as 400 yds, well, there you are..), and since you could barely see us (and we you), then you would have had no way of knowing that Greg, Gabe, Don, Austin, and I and the pack were lined up together discussing with Bill Walker who the lone paddler was way, way out to our left and what they were doing and that they were going to miss the start.

Then I recall all of us chuckling at the fact that we figured out that it was you (by process of elimination) and since you were not paddling and were aimed east, you were planning to start there! It was one of those “you’ve got to be kidding me…” Bizarro World moments. Bill was a bit distraught and confused and standing on shore and delayed us for a few minutes because he didn’t know what to do as there was no way any of us could signal you, so he started the race anyway. I don’t think that Greg and Gabe caught you until 15 minutes or so into the race. I was one of a few paddlers that spoke with Bill afterwards and asked if you were supposed to have been in our race or or if you were a “wildcat“ (unregistered racer) - or something to that extent.

I suppose that if it didn’t register with you that you were gaining an unfair advantage, then I’m not sure what else to do but scratch my head on that one …

Broadening the topic a bit, here's an idea for big races:

It's reasonable to think that the deep water start line in big races might “hold” better if the top 20 -30 or so elites (as designated by the race director) were staged on the front line a good 20 meters ahead of the pack, because I suspect what happens is that some sub-elites push their way in between the top guns trying to line up even with them, which just makes the elite guy inch ahead of that creeper who again creeps up, ad infinitum. Does that make sense? If I were a Mocke, Rice, etc, I wouldn't want a fat old guy like me squeezing in right next to them, possibly going early, getting in their way, and screwing up their start. Heck, while I don't jump starts, if slower paddlers are too close alongside me on the start line, I try to maneuver my bow 1 or 2 ft ahead so that we all don't hit paddles at the horn. The place to have the jetski buzzing back and forth, then, would be along a line between the first line of 20-30 and the pack - in effect, holding the pack back. Sounds like a workable idea to me, but what do I know…
In smaller races, self-seeding on the start line works to some extent, but I don't think it alone will fix the start line jumpers. Carter's rule would, though.

I'm not sure why some of us like me get kind of worked up over issues like this on what is supposed to be a friendly, relaxing way to recreate…and when there are conflicting ideas about what is right and what is wrong, my house of cards quivers a bit - which is disconcerting, to say the least.

EB

dnjacobson79
08/31/14 #16193

Rock & roll, we're digging up history (or as one of LG's favorite rappers says, 'his-story'). Funny how I remember chatting with the race director a couple days after the race & told that I thought I was sitting on the start line, I said DQ me if you like, I enjoyed the fun low-key race. Kind of ridiculous that someone didn't approach me right then & there after the race. A couple paddlers that were hanging out on the starting-line ended up chatting with the race director & said I was lined-up with them when the horn went off. I don't know what the group that you were in was doing warming up out yonder (doing a triple warm-up maybe?), other than missing the start. But, that was 4-5 years ago (?), definitely history. I thought I was on the line, heck, I was freaking behind the line for that matter…blah, blah, blah……

One thing is for certain, we need some waves because this conversation has gone on WAY too long. Maybe if the start issue was a big deal last weekend for Clint, or for anyone else for that matter, they should have brought it up right then & there in real time to the race director. Clint can advocate for himself as needed. Maybe just as ridiculous that the De Fuca Downwinder was not brought up in real time, is all the chatter that this conversation has produced, but maybe the chatter is a good thing, I don't know. It feels like all we're doing now is having 'after the fact parking lot gripe sessions', we might as well be knitting some nice winter hats while we're at it.

Duncan, don't let RD get out of writing the Lake Samish playbook - heck, for that matter, he needs to be on the sheriff boat enforcing the start (no firearms though, seriously). Eric - hope Wisconsin is treating the family good. Lack of waves can always be replaced with fried cheese products, stay fast on that erg, we know you will - teach one to surf while you're at it.

-DJ

allipp01

08/31/14 #16194

Although DJ regularly jumps the gun, in the case of the 2012 DeFuca downwind HE DID NOT!

Here is an e mail I sent to Bill Walker shortly after that race regarding what I saw:

Aloha Bill,

Apparently there has been some talk that DJ started early, and/or ahead of the line, for the deFuca downwind. He absolutely did not!

In the pre-race meeting, you stated that the first group would leave at 2:00 and the second group precisely 15 minute later, and that the starting line was between the parking lot and the point, and extending beyond, for those who would like to start outside.

Approximately 12 to 13 minutes after the first start, I headed up to the line, and stopped about a few hundred yards outside of the point, lining myself up exactly with the parking lot and the point. Lo and behold, I saw the starting boat right at the point, and also I saw Eric Grossman and told him that according to my watch, we'd be starting in a couple minutes. I looked back and noted that all the top surfski paddlers were in a group heading in the wrong direction way upwind from the starting line. I think I mentioned to Eric that there was no way they were going to make the start!

Sure enough, the horn sounded and off we went. I never saw DJ, but he was definitely not over the line because I was right on it!

I can't see how their own error can be construed as someone else cheating. You were, to me at least, quite clear in the pre-race meeting as to starting time and starting line, so I'd have to say that the onus is on them to be on the line on time!

Aloha

Alan Lipp

ps feel free to forward this.

Dennis Mowry
09/01/14 #16214

I appreciate all the discussion, and I hope it is encouraging rather than contentious. I like how everyone has been so encouraging with advice and tips, I wouldn't be getting that much better without everyone's help. On the drafting, I'm usually doing all I can to keep up. I even imitate the person in front of me and try to learn better form. I need all the help I can get.

Drafting difinetly helps that's why everyone does it. If it gives me a better time in the course I will keep it and try to beat it the next time. If I draft someone to the finish and try to overtake them I will concede the race if I win., unless they started early or cut corners. I know that they would still be a faster racer and my time will have to get better next time. Although I once lost a ribbon at a cross sound race to someone drafting me most of the way, it was my lost for not saving some energy for the finish, shaking him off and losing form at the finish.

I would think that if there was any trading going on it would be because the lead person falling off until able to recover. I can see mutually trading it for a team effort. I will even admit to crowding out the second position draft when possible or if there is a long line behind it and if I think I can maintain. if i risk clashing pladdles I wiil go to the end of the line. I also appoligise for bumping boats sometimes, I take a lot of effort not to. I'm flattered if someone drafts me and dont mind a little push sometimes.

I appreciate hearing everyone opinions and being able to share a few of my own. I do hope it results in more fitness & fun, not only for ourselves but also for everyone.

Dennis

Michael Lee

09/03/14 #16228

Here is how you eliminate “cheating starts”. Leave it to the French Canadians.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10204663627020549

Kimberly Reeves

09/04/14 #16229

In Hawaii, the have jet skis that aggressively cruise the start line…if you drift over, you get a boat full of water from them….
It is pretty effective :)

Michael Lee

09/04/14 #16230

Good idea. Any suggestions on who should pilot the jet ski. :0

Start line vs Drafting, Obstruction, etc
Reivers Dustin
08/30/14 #16187

Just to clarify: things that happen after the gun goes off are conduct issues. Not very much the race committee can do on this stuff. I like that CSSC tried to outlaw drafting out of class (it still happened and Kathleen jumped all over Oscar for it - check Clint's facebook). It's good if we call B.S. on it and my skirts are not totally clean in this regard.

But cheating a start line is trash. When someone walks away with a winners check because he paddled 60 ft less than a faster guy - it is theft. If people want to idolize a fuckin asshat like that I'm going to spoil the party. It doesn't matter to me what his VO2max or benchpress is.

I keep wanting to drop this, but not sure I'm being heard.

rd

duncanhowat
08/30/14 #16189

RD as one approaches ones mid 60's and early 70's one has to fight the GMOM syndrome. I know I do.(grumpy old men)

kathleen petereit
08/31/14 #16204

I was going to bring up the drafting out of class but was told by by a very experienced racer to drop it as there is not much benefit to a double that is drafting a single. I didn't quite get that as I thought well aren't you still getting a ride ? Jonas and I had an opprtunity to draft a single but I said to stay clear of this guy as we may get DQ'd if someone thinks we are drafting. Our coach Igor is very strict about race starts and the rules and would be pissed if he knew any of us cheated in a race.

I like Carter's suggestion. Reiver's good for you for bringing this up. I am sure Bob will rectify the situation for next year. Jan said he also held back at the atart thinking for sure there would be a restart. Clint is a fine example of a top class atlete.

Kathleen